Monday, October 08, 2007

Tarana-e-Hind

Update: Ritwik writes a rebuttal, I am still trying to figure out what exactly he was rebutting (and I say this in all seriousness). And yes I do subscribe to Male Chauvinist, Kayastha Supremacist, whatever one intends to throw. I have no idea about reverse snobbery, but infamy is more easily gained and the end result is same. I do hope however that he took into consideration that I was talking about trade-offs.

Another Update: In comments, Ritwik, me.

Final Update: Everyone is ordered to read the comment thread by royal decree.

Should I have freedom or should I have nation? This is the query which troubles dear friend Rohit. His shoulders are of course weighed down by the burden of sacred creed of secularism, liberalism and rationalism of which he is a member. Now yours truly doesn't have membership card of the above creed, as a consequence he is totally unburdened and free of any worry in this world.

Anyhow the point is, some of educated readers might remember when the incomparable dissimulator* asked a rhetorical question. He had demanded to know who is more honourable or rather who should be considered a better Indian. One a thief, a lout, a murderer, in other words a thoroughly despicable human being, but one who respects Indian flag and Vande-Matram, or second of impeccable manners, of irreproachable speech, and a admirable knowledge who refuses to pay respect to flag or Vande-Matram and perhaps is even less than enthusiastic about patriotism.

Apparently the big boob** assumed he was posing a dilemma, however to me there is no dilemma.

I submit that in the example given, the lout who repulses us is nevertheless a better Indian than the latter. I further submit that not only the second person a bad Indian, he is an actual threat to India.

To understand this, a nation is a nothing more than an idea. An idea of unity which derives from another idea even more fundamental, that of a shared culture, ethnicity, language or religion, in other words from a group identity. In itself this idea of nation is abstract and has no legs of its own. The strength of this idea comes from the strength of group identity, the cohesion of group, the affinity of individual constituent of group with each other.

It follows then that a nation is not sustained and protected by her army or the reserve. It is also not defended by the platitudes about freedom, secularism and rationalism. Ultimately what saves a nation, and not only saves but also helps it rebirth in fashion of phoenix is the allegiance of constituents to the group, the extent with which the member identify with the group identity.

Now a related question from this line of reasoning is why form groups at all? The answer to this is not found in treatise on liberalism or even in fond facts of economics, but in Discovery channel.

The first and the foremost reason groups are formed is because such an formation is required for my second wager, in the sense that it protects life and nourishes life. Here "nourish" requires explanation. I believe that freedom, scientific temper, individualism are the necessary factors for this "nourishment" of life, that we should aim to create freemen and not slaves. However none of the above can exist, if the group ceases to exist. Therefore it turns out that safety of group precedes considerations of individual participants.

From the above paragraphs, I conclude that for any normal human whose instincts are not distorted by substance abuse or over-indulgence in narcissism, the course of action should be to ensure that groups remain intact, from which it follows that he has to resist by any means available any challenge to group, which means any entity or even idea which dilutes group cohesion. Further a conduct contrary to this course, or even indifferent to this is a threat to the group and hence must be discouraged by any means possible. Further any action which harms group identity harms the constituents. In safety of group lies the safety of its constituents.

Here there are three uncertainties. The first order of uncertainty is what constitutes the definition of nourishment, this is a subjective term. What I believe may this is best for civilization may not be the belief shared by others. Therefore this term remains subject to debate.

The second order is introduced by the fact that the freedom and allegiance are contrary in nature. Which means a trade-off is involved with an aim towards achieving the optimized configuration to achieve the objective (that is nourishment). As in the first this also is open to disagreement.

The third order is introduced by disagreement over what exactly constitutes threat to the group, what is the severity of the threat and what should be the extent of any effort to neutralize this threat. During war time it is given that civil rights may be restricted. What about preemptive measures ? What about counter terrorism? All the considerations are subject to scrutiny.

My rough and ready rule of thumb is to consider how severely the challenge to unity is. I place more importance to the ideas which bring about disunity and division, because ideas are what drive the action. The second rule is to consider how much the effort to neutralize threat results in monopoly of power in the form of state. I will prefer efforts which work without the the monopoly which inevitably leads to moral corruption. Here I again emphasize. Inaction is not an option.

And it is here that I accuse Indian liberals of various errors. (BOCTAOE, YSLE)

First and foremost is that Indian liberals fail to take cognizance of group identity. Indeed they continue to remain in denial, deliberately suppressing any shared memory, to the extent that in some cases they actually denigrate it, and attempting to fill the void by chanting the liberal mantras. Related is the easy dismissal of history as a medium which can illuminate our decision by providing context, providing information to fill the gaps.

Other errors derive from this "original sin". Since the very idea of group identity is non-existent, any discussion of security, purpose of group, and any trade offs involved in group formation is condemned to remain superficial.

Why this happens is puzzling to me. My first guess was that liberals are antithesis of engineers. Scared of constraints, they cling superstitiously to their notion of false absolutes.
But this is not correct. For one I am a lousy engineer myself, for other what I have written have for the most part prompted by repeated viewings of discovery channel*** and reading Robert Heinlein. Also most of them are clearly smarter than me.

The other explanation which I find more plausible is their unwillingness to admit that in the end any system of logic rests on some belief which can not be "proved" and thus is essentially irrational. That and perhaps resentment at the realization that beneath this trapping of civilization there still lurks a jungle.

Now in conclusion I will admit of my own bias. I believe (and apologies for reiterating for nth time), that a strong India benefits all its constituents. I also believe that in absence this land will revert to a state of disharmony and chaos. Further (being Hindutva Fascist) I believe that our actions must be guided by the considerable influence of the ummah to our west and its eroding effect on the civilization.

*,** I think everyone must be aware who is that unworthy I am talking about. I am talking about really big boobs.

*** Of course to shield my nephews from inappropriate content. I do realize that Anaconda on Anaconda action is considered incredibly hot in some disreputable sections, but my own tastes are rather conservative.

12 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dont eat my brain. Who is the big boob?

doubtinggaurav said...

No fan of quizzing, are you :-)

Ritwik said...

Was trying to rebut your assertion (and the subsequent reasoning for that assertion)that the flag and anthem respecting lout is the better Indian. Did I do such a bad job?

I did take into account that you were talking about tradeoffs. But the nation vs freedom taradeoff bit is the one I agree with, and I was not talking abot that at all. I am not comfortable with your 'nation is only an idea' assertion in the first place.

doubtinggaurav said...

Ritwik,

First What it boils down to is what is the greater crime,disrespecting flag or being a thief. For me it is the former, for you it is the latter.
You attach no importance to flag/Vande-Matram, I place a high importance on flag/Vande-Matram *, I also place high importance on the context (and there is always a serious context) that a person refuses to pay respect to flag/Vande-Matram and consider it as a grave threat.

Second I did say in the post, that there is a lot of unclarity in what constitutes the threat to group. I am not saying that injury to individual is immaterial or of low importance ! Far from it! In fact, I will say injustice and grievance or even a sense of them weakens the group cohesions, actually I have said that earlier also, I think you can find it in archives (too lazy to dig up myself). What the intention was to argue that having identified a threat to group while we may differ on the the best way to eliminate it we can not afford to remain indifferent to it.

Third, Yes nation is an abstraction, everything that is expressed in language is ultimately an abstraction. It is for us to investigate what correspondence to reality this abstraction. has.In case of physical entities (such as apples or chairs) the correspondence is clear cut. However if it is a concept which nation very much is,then this task of correspondence is very tricky.

While I did say that nation is a concept I gave the ground for it in group identity. In fact I went further and linked group identity to second wager. On the other hand what is your arguement

"There is exactly one concrete marker of a nation, and that is its current constituents."

and

"India is a lot of things to a lot of people, but to me it is primarily the people who inhabit the nation today, and more pertinently, the people who identify themselves as Indians. The strength of their belief in the idea of India is of low consequence to me."

Does it even mean anything !You are just calling nation a bloody collection !
Orphaned from history, stripped of any meaning, divorced of any purpose, existing only in present.

And you call yourself nationalist based on this understanding !

What can I say !

Ritwik said...

1) NOT orphaned from history, stripped of meaning or devoid of purpose.

Purpose and meaning don't stem only from the past, I find enough purpose in the present. Enough, atleast, for my limited comprehension and finite lifetime. I do derive glory from our historical foundations. However, they is neither sufficient nor necessary for my self-concept as an Indian. And it is not possible to be orphaned from history anyway - the present reality reflects the formative history with due weightage to the importance of that history in the present context.

And I call myself a nationalist based on precisely this understanding. I don't need that basis which is critical to you, it is only a welcome addition.

I do find it surprising, though, that you are ultra-enthusiastic about certain nebulous concepts but can yet dismiss the people who hold those concepts as 'a bloody collection'. I would find 'a bloody collection' to be a more appropriate usage for what you are suggesting, which to me seems like a personal understanding which you believe should be universal. You want to define and describe India, and yet are unwilling to take into account what the idea means to me, a fellow Indian! Truly Gaurav, what can I say!

2) You can name it the nth wager for all you like, but you would still find it difficult to explain why it is the 'nation' that is primarily responsible for nourishment, for meaning, for purpose. Why not my religion? Why not my caste? Why not my ethnicity? Why not my domicile?

I CHOOSE to derive purpose, meaning and nourishment from the idea of the nation, and hence I am willing to give it the first claim to my freedom and hence I am a nationalist. It is not a unique choice, and it it influenced by a thousand social factors, like all choices are. But it could have been different. I could have chosen another way, and the intensity of my choice could have been different.

What happens in TN at the moment hardly affects me in any real tangible terms. But I choose to let it affect me. In doing that, I choose my identity, and I choose my nationalism.

3) Lastly, I do hope you got my point about stealing vs disrespect of the national flag. You give more importance to the idea of the flag in your national identity, I am more willing to accommodate the fellow Indian who was robbed as part of my national identity.

doubtinggaurav said...

Ritwik,

Reg Purpose: In that case it is not clear to me at least what do you understand by India and therefore I don't know what do you understand by being nationalist. And it is possible to be orphaned from history, by denying it. This is what is happening in India.

Reg Collection: I am sorry for the language, but what you said in your post in effect seems "too" arbitrary to me. No what I suggest is the basis behind group so there is a process involved, true there still remains uncertainty but trimmed down. And I am seriously at loss to understand the point regarding personal vs. universal.
Understanding and inferences are always personal in nature,and applied to the universal case. It is not that I am not willing to take into account other views, but it is that I have taken them into account and didn't find them robust enough. Now I admit my conclusions might have been wrong owing to my biases, but in the end my actions have to be guided my thoughts.

Reg Wager: History illuminates our decisions. I support nation, because my reading of history suggests to me that a strong India is good for civilization (please take note I didn't say inhabitants, to me civilization take precedence over present).
Again from history I have come to realize that whenever India is fragmented, she has declined and her inhabitants condemned to slavery. From above for me nation takes precedence over my other "identities" . Now it is possible that someone arrives at a different conclusion from his understanding of history.

Reg Choice: Again I apologize if I offend, but I find this whole Randian construction of "I CHOOSE" somewhat irksome. Granted it is you who makes the choice, what interest me is how is this choice made. Isn't better if the choice is informed so that the consequences are desired.


Again I apologize for my language. What can I say it is a thankless job being the dictator.

Ritwik said...

Purpose: Utility, liberty and equality of opportunity, in that order, for the current and future inhabitants of the nation. My understanding of the Indian nation is primarily that of the current socio-economic-political system (current obviously takes into acount modern history). I find this concept large enough to derive my national identity from. The glory of the civilization is a welcome addition, but neither necessary nor sufficient. I don't believe that we have been significantly orphaned from our history. I think this fundamental difference in your beliefs and mine explains the difference in our attitudes to almost everything else on this issue.

Personal vs Universal : That was perhaps just senseless rhetoric from my side. Am a budding MBA, have to be in GD mode and all that. Can be safely ignored.

Wager : If you begin with your civilizational frame of reference as India, you are bound to feel that any divisions within that weaken the civilization. Your conclusions may have been different if you began with a different definition of civilization.

Choice : Not a Randian construction. I do not deny that my choice may not be mine at all. I am only aware that my choice could easily have been different. Indeed, it is so for many people. People in my family even one generation before me identify much more strongly with the identity of being a Bihari or a Kayastha than I do. I often get the feeling that this usually translates into a slightly weakened national identity.

One can call a choice 'informed' or 'uninformed' only if there are a reasonably common set of assumptions and circumstances. It is my experience that even in such closely connected groups as a family, this may not be so.

I guess we'll have to leave this here. Don't bother about the language - on an issue like the nation, strong emotions are bound to flow. The dictator should however be aware that a number of future such rebelions are planned.

Ritwik said...

" socio-economic-political system "

System would be wrong word to use, I tguess. It gives the impression of a formal institutional setup. Can be replaced by 'situation'.

Shabdon pe naa jao, bhavnaon ko samjho. ;-)

doubtinggaurav said...

Ritwik,

In my opinion your latest comment frames the debate in proper perspective. I do think our difference can be reduced to differences in our perspectives.

Just as a postscript I do think your perspective (essentially utilitarian) can be derived from my perspective (as expressed in wager)

Also there is one problem with your approach, which however I am not able to articulate at the moment, so it may have to wait for the latter time.

But do tell, don't you think what you wrote in the comment is substantially different from what you wrote in the comment ?

Reg. Rebellion, I was disposed to condemn you to cohabit with the eminent one, but I am afraid that you may begin to like it, after all there is no accounting for manager's tastes :-D

Ritwik said...

Umm, not substantially different. Maybe better and more concretely formulated. The central premises of a nation as its citizens (socio-economic-political situation of the citizens, more precisely), of the people who hold an idea being more primary than the idea itself, and of the thief being worse than the 'flag-disrespector' remain constant.

Anonymous said...

Gaurav,
As someone who is not very young,a half baked idealist who has understood the complexity of life,and a south indian brahmana to complete the picture,i am not attracted by theories of indian nationalism. I was shocked fifteen years back when a vellala village accountant(a very distant cousin of the kayastha!)dismissed the idea of india in a bitter vein.I was shocked even more when i read more vitriol in dravidian propoganda.

But now my view point has changed.Language,more than ethnicity,defines civilization.Of course,the Lived tradition is even more important.As free market capitalism develops in fits and starts,many of the differences which were kept under wraps by a paternalistic government will come in full view.

The present bureacracy has to be reformed and the productive capacities have to be unleashed.But I have a feeling North India will overwhelm the rest of the nation.This will trigger resistance,but personally i would support the resurgence.

This push/shove would be welcome to remove some blockheads in bengal/kerala/TN/punjab/particularly north karnataka

I dont care much for nationalism.The seers of upanishads sought the essence in 'Being'(Sat-existence).Perhaps Chit(Consciousness) is what you call nourishment.They did not care much about nationalism.The vedic seers ofcourse had faith in rashtra,which was more a tribal loyalty.By the time of itihasas and puranas,an indian consciousness had emerged.

In the medieval ages,Sankara,the great vedantin,had a clear idea of the cultural unity of india.

The British created an empire using modern technology,but it was the Bengali cultural nationalists starting from Bankim Chandra who were the real progenitors of modern nationalism.The Bengalis suffered a major setback in East Bengal and felt cheated by the Gandhi-Nehru leadership.

But now ever more than before,one sees a greater unity of purpose.The Great gangetic plains are stirring,they hold out promise,if they are not burdened by overpopulation and jokers like lalu.Some parts seem to have lost steam(the presidencies of Bengal,Madras,the city of madras is vibrant).Sometimes,I think of india as a string given by u(x,t)which is in vibrating mode where t-time,x-some part,vibrating up and down.

Without unity,we will become weak.In a state like TN this might mean totalitarians like ramadoss,come to power.

Atleast until Pakistan is decimated and the monolithic chinese communist goes into decline,india has to continue as a nation for the sake of humanity.For the eternal values you identify as the essence of being.

This might seem as a minimalist viewpooint seen through the eyes of a mleccha hating brahmana.But for me civilization is greater than nationalism.Of course innumerable opportunities exist for the descendants of Bharatha,the citizens of Bharata Varsha to sustain institutions which nourish life,liberty,thought,creative arts in many collective and indvidual capacities.

doubtinggaurav said...

Ritwik,

You refuse to submit to my awesomeness, I am disappointed.

xyz,

I disagree, but this thread has run its course. Let's spar for another day :-)