Walls???
In this post Gaurav Sabnis explains the rationale behind Shiv Sena.
".....The Sena just filled a vacuum. Most of the educated Maharashtrian middle class doesn't like the Sena. But most of us also shudder to think of an alternative scenario in the 80s and 90s without the Sena's existence....."
".... Sena's problem was the growth trajectory. An army is useful during times of conflict, but put it in charge during peace times and you have a cauldron of nitroglycerin in your kitchen. The last decade or so has been a time of relative peace, and it is peace time that has discredited and vilified the Sena in the eyes of its most ardent supporters."
There can be two explanations.
One, Shiv Sena acted as counter point against militant trade unions.
Two, Shiv Sena defended home turf of Marathis against outsiders.
I hope it is the first explanation and not the second one.
I can not view Shiv Sena too favourably in light of my experiences in Mumbai. Shiv Sena is a virulently anti-immigrant party. The actions of Shiv Sena are comparable to a school bully. Shiv Sena activists harass migrant labourers from South or Gangetic belt, these generally being engaged in menial jobs or fairly modest occupations and therefore unable to protect themselves.
The reason I feel uncomfortable is, while in Mumbai I found that even among middle class residents of mumbai (i.e. not limited to Marathis), there was a latent support for tactics of Shiv Sena, and dislike for migration.
Since I have been a migrant for more than 8 years now, I am always sensitive about issues of migration.
PS. Wrt. my observation regarding Mumbai it might have been due to cultural differences or my over sensitivity
33 comments:
You are right Marathis seem to dislike "others" coming to Mumbai and establishing themselves.The Shivsena was founded on this principle.Earlier it was "lungi hatao", now it is "Bihari" hatao.
But we have also heard similar anti-migrant noises from Bangalore some months back.
Praveen,
I am not sure, it might be possible that it was Shiv Sena which incited the Marathi population in 70's
Regards
The Shiv Sena's rise was mainly because of the paucity of jobs under the license-permit-quota raj. When young men from small town or rural Maharashtra went to Bombay they found that in many places, they were being passed up for appointment in favour of other communities. often the person appointed would belong to the same community as the person taking the decision. So jobs like clerks, secretaries, ban tellers etc, which did not involve a high level of merit which can be cited as grounds for selection, were seen as being distributed on a parochial basis.
The Sena rose and gained prominence mainly because of this issue.
Post-91 though, white collar jobs are not an issue, so it doesn't rouse passions any more. But to get an idea of how the support to the Sena was more a reaction than an initiative, recall the incident from a couple of years back when the Sena thrashed up folks who had come to apply for small jobs on the railway stations in Central Railway. Apparently the Railways issued an advertisement about the jobs only in papers in UP and Bihar. No ads in papers in Maharashtra. Naturally when word about this got out, folks were pissed and the Sena just spearheaded the angst.
Sena does control trade unions, but it was a by-product of their muscle power.
80s onwards, support for the Sena widened amongst Hindus in Bombay because of communal tensions, and it peaked during the babri riots where most people, not just marathis, feel that the Sena "protected" them from the fury of the Muslim mobs. It is this wall that i mainly refer to. the hindu-muslim war in times of riots.
By the way, the opposition to migrants, at least after the jobs thing has lost relevance, is limited to illegal immigrants and slum dwellers. Thackeray said in an interview that he and his party have no problems with people who come to Bombay, buy or rent a house legitimately, and get a job on their own merit rather than through a parochial "sifaarish". Most Bombayites share that view.
That Bombay is bursting at its seams is undeniable. But the solution to the issue is a lot more complex than the Sena, or most Bombayites believe.
@Gaurav,
Good info, that explains the reason for the anti-migrant stance.
And yes the "LPQC...what not raj" has led to many disasters in India.
The solution to the bursting population /slums/infrastructure in Mumbai , as you said, wont be easy.
Sabnis,
As I have said earlier I do not have the complete info.The incident you quoted happened during my times, I did not know about the advertisement issue though.
Regarding parochialism, I think I can understand. However I think it is a human tendency to favour and support people who share a group identity, the identity ofcourse changes in context(if I am not incorrect it happens even in US).
Ultimately problem is undesirable restriction of enterprise.
Regarding migration issue while it may not be of same import as in previous decades, I do think there remains some prejudice against immigrants in relatively benign form. I may be wrong though.
I think I should clarify that I never had to face any discrimination.
Pankaj,
Our socialist past is to be blamed for many of the present day ills
Regards
Gaurav (Sabnis) - Since you've turned off comments on your blog, I've had to put my comment here.
Your post on the 40th anniversary of the Shiv Sena was an interesting read. In particular, I was intrigued by how you used the climax of a Hollywood movie to best capture the relevance of the Sena. A rogue General justifying the murder of a Marine on the grounds of protection of the country at any cost. And the leader of a party that has flaunted its chauvinism, communalism and belief in violence as strengths to a community marginalised. Ah, how thought-provoking.
Your brief recap of the Sena's history in your comment here is also interesting. I see no mention of their alleged hand in Krishna Desai's murder. Or of Balasaheb's pangas with PuLa. Or of the fact that a party whose main plank was fighting for the Marathi Manoos did barely anything for the workers of Mumbai's Mill Lands. Except of course Mr. Manohar Joshi scooping up a mill land property himself last year.
And your statement that the Sena - and most Bombayites - are fine with people coming in legitly and getting a job on their own merit rather than sifaarish. That was really a good flash of the blindingly obvious. Pray, who would oppose that view ? Did you write that for a Miss India pageant ?
But you follow it up with another - Solution to Bombay bursting is more complex than all of us believe. Oh what a refreshing insight. Yawn. Next time why don't you give us your view on how the influx of people into Bombay can be resolved ? Ah wait - can I expect a unique and novel answer like "Separate Bombay from the state?" That sounds more like Mahesh Bhatt now.
Dude, quit living in the past. If your post - and this comment - was an attempt to explain the relevance of the Sena, I find it hilarious that the word "violence" didn't figure in either. Really, how naive. Tee hee.
The Sena is dying a slow death. And rightly so. The quicker, the better. Else we might be mingling with Naxalites in line with Balasaheb's answer to fighting terrorism.
Anon,
While I do agree with Sabnis diagnosis of ills that plague Mumbai(of socialism), I do not give Shiv Sena the same latitude as Sabnis.
The reason for this is of course different perspective. (Myself being a migrant and his being a resident of Maharashtra)
Having said that I respect spirit of Mumbai and would like to see rest of India emulate Mumbai (atleast in terms of enterpreneuship)
I hope to right a follow up post
Regards
Doubting-Gaurav -
"I do not give Shiv Sena the same latitude as Sabnis" - touche and agree.
"Myself being a migrant and his being a resident of Maharashtra" - same here, altho I've stayed my entire life in Bombay.
Thank you. Do forgive my inordinate occupancy on your blog. For the love of God I can't figure out why bloggers (who would, I assume, support freedom of expression) would choose to have comments turned off.
Am looking fwd to your follow-up.
I dislike SHIV SENA because of the divisional politics they play. Because of the way they infringe on a citizen's basic freedoms under the pretence of protecting our culture. Because they possess everything but sanity and the basic value instilled in every Indian and that is tolerance.
I am giving the Sena latitude? What sort of a latitude? Is an attempt to understand the phenomenon the same as giving it latitude? I am just telling you what went into the formation of the phenomenon. Is it not a reality that the Shivsena exists and enjoys at least some amount of popularity? If trying to explain that is giving them latitude, then yes, I am also giving them a healthy dose of longitude.
Read the posts listed here to find out what I have been writing about the Shivsena over the years.
I did not set out to write a full fledged history of the Sena, so did not mention a lot of things. My blog is a place for me to say what I am feeling at that moment, and not a historic chronicle. Else it would contain all about PuLa, Kini, Joshi's son-in-law, Rane's criminal origins, Bhujbals's muscle-power history, trade unionism, January 6, their RS nominees all being non-marathi, Fire, ISB reservations, Ghulam Ali, igniting the Laine issue,.... etc.
As for the "people coming in legitly and getting jobs" being so blindingly obvious, maybe you should look up news about the protests in Bangalore asking for job reservations for Kannadigas in IT companies. The problem with our country is that a lot of things which are blindingly obvious are being ignored. Isn't it blindingly obvious that there is no sense in banning Da Vinci Code?
As for the solutions to Bombay's problems, my dear Einstein, it is precisely because they are complex that they can not be summed up in a comment on a blog.
Anyhow, Anon, I have two words for you, but since you are such an expert and guessing the obvious, I won't spell them out. ;)
doubtinggaurav,
I hope to right a follow up post
I know you have rightist views, but isn't this too much of a Freudian slip? Just kidding. :)
One more point to ponder is that Pune, which is also a major employment center has never seen the Sena succeed politically. None of their movements ever get any response there either. Because the inflow of the expatriates was never that huge in the city, and never created a xenophobia from the job angle. And similarly, Pune has never had any hindu-muslim communal trouble, so there aren't those "walls" to protect either.
Sabnis,
I know what you have written about the Shiv Sena that is why I did not say you support it. I just said you gave latitude by which I meant leeway.
Secondly your choice of words (the part I emphasized in the post) might have seemed a litte inappropriate to migrants,
that is why people like me (and in all probability anon) were not comfortable with it, in fact this was the reason I wrote the post in the first place. I clarified this in my comment too (i.e our having different perspective).
I can not vouch for Freud, but my english sux (Kya karein bhayya hain :-))
Regards
PS. I do not think there is any problem with Mumbai, I think there is problem with India.
Your view about Pune is bang on.
But I will always have a soft corner for mumbai.
Sabnis -
Thanks for that link. I didn't take the pains of going through all your posts. What I did do was google for these words on your blog. Here's what I found
1. krishna desai- no mention
2. Manohar Joshi - largely references to ex-HRD minister Murli Manohar Joshi
3. P. L. Deshpande - No reference anywhere to the famous Balasaheb-PuLa interludes.
Eventually I got bored and didn't want to run similar searches on all the other things/people you mentioned (Rane, Kini, Bhujbal, Seinfeld, etc). (ok, omit Seinfeld there, you've already covered that so often).
My point - For someone who has written so extensively on the Sena, it's a bit much that you more or less ignored all those issues.
So, if I've got you right, you attempted to explain something that is (a) real (b) exists (c) enjoys popularity. Excellent. The mind boggles at what all can fit there. Himesh Reshammiya and Rakhi Sawant come top of mind. But ah, I don't want to introduce red herrings.
Thank God you didn't set out to do a full-fledged history. After "A few good men", I'm sure you'd resort to "Godfather" and "Revenge of the Sith". May I suggest you also look up the Gunmaster G9 series? There's some stuff there that's beyond the blindingly obvious.
Thank God also that you didn't attempt to summarise the problems of Bombay. Here's hoping you won't blog on it. In case you do, please look up the Mumbai Mission that the TOI is running. It has some insights that even beat yours on the complexities of the solutions for Bombay from people like Karan Johar, Queenie Dhody, Bobby Darling and Mallika Sherawat. (ok, kidding after KJ).
I have more than two words for you and you wouldn't even know half of them.
DoubtingGaurav - I like your comment policy. Especially this part -
"6. If you are a blogger, then I expect reciprocity as common courtesy. This means that please comment only if you allow comments on your blog. If not, or if you have banned me from commenting kindly refrain from commenting."
You do know that Sabnis disallows comments on his blog, right ?
Anon,
I do know, however since this post referred Sabnis post, it is only natural to allow his comments
Regards
anonymous and doutinggaurav, please don't even begin to think of not allowing sabnis to comment. This is how we learn about his naive and pompous - oh sorry, I meant his incizive and humble - arguments. This one about the Sena takes the cake and eats it too.
DG - agree. Clearly I didn't see it from that perspective.
Anon2 - agree. Liked the way you put it.
Btw - thanks to DG's links to post, I caught Sabnis's latest post (linking here), where he elucidates his stance. Or something like that. It's a hilarious post with his trademark astounding insights.
Enough ! I won't occupy DG's space anymore. Unless Sabnis comes back here.
anon, You did not find me writing about the Thackeray-PuLa spat? You're not good even at googling then.
anon2, With your "incizive" typo, you have outed yourself. Hi there, "Old Friend".
I hate mysteries.....
The Sena may seem very loony at times but at one time it had direction, however bad non-marathis may feel it was.
It was tough then for lower middle class maharashtrians to get jobs anywhere at that time because of the preferences of the employers at tht time apart from in the mills. And when the mills started becoming "bankrupt" (i.e. the owners thought it more profitable to declare their insolvency and not pay off their debts when they were swimming in cash), it became hell!! Ask me, my grandfather was a mill worker. My father spent his youth in an impoverished house with no fixed income. And this was true for many.
At that time the only force fighting for these people was the Sena. Whatever their arguments, whatever their thoughts, they supported the blue collered maharashtrians and they did a good job at it. Hence the still remaining support for the Sena even now.
As for the Anons, stop ganging up on people on things which have not affected you. And pray do show your identity. No need to get "blue" with shyness!!
Sabnis - Your replies are getting even more pathetic. You're so badly cornered you can't accept it. Or hang on - lemme guess, you were busy and you will give a detailed reply later ? What could you be busy with ? Lemme guess, were you posting on how the Sainiks beat up people watching a porn movie in a theatre at Ulhasnagar? Ah well, this happens when you give "wall-protectors" power, you know these wall-protectors do tend to, you know, do this.
And how convenient. Of the 3 things I got from your blog, you point to only one.
Ok - so I missed your post. Teach me to google. Please link it up in your reply (assuming you even come back here). And make sure you give the google link so I know what I should have searched for instead of "P. L. Deshpande".
You know people like you should...ah forget it..why should I stoop to your level ?
@ Dhananjay - agree. See that's the difference between someone who has seen this up front and someone who pontificates in a tee-hee manner. And hey, come on, what does my identity have to do with it ? I could be Khan, Desai, Gupta, Deshpande or Gonsalves..why should that really matter to this debate?
All you had to do was go through the link i gave you. That you did not take the trouble of reading even the FIRST link on that page, shows that you are more interested in a slanging match than any useful discussion. The very first link on the results page I gave has the following -
Add to it, their cocksure behaviour, especially the episode where Thackeray insulted Pu La Deshpande, Maharashtra's greatest author and most loved personality. The reason for this outburst was that Deshpande was being given an award by the government and in the speech he criticised the government's functioning. Democracy? Freedom of speech? No way, says Thackeray who longs for a civil war in India and lambasts democracy. he made churlish comments like "Deshpande spat in the very plate he ate from" and "In fact, I should have gotten the award, but I told the government to give it to him".
In short, power intoxicated them.
As far as Krishna Desai and Manohar Joshi are concerned, no they are not mentioned anywhere. The reason being, as I said, I never claimed to write a complete history of the Sena. I have made almost 50 posts about the Shivsena and each one of them has been critical. If Desai or MJ didn't find a mention in them, it is because they were not relevant to the context in which my posts were being written.
And as far as lecturing me about giving power to the Sena is concerned, you are preaching to the converted. Right from the first ever post on my blog I have been lambasting the Shivsena.
If you think that not writing about Krishna Desai and Manohar Joshi makes someone a Sena supporter then fine, I am a Sena supporter. However if you have enough time, read what I have written about the party over the last 4 years and then judge for yourself. If you still feel compelled to somehow brand me a Sena supporter or a Sena apologist, I really can't do much about it.
As for the use of movie analogies, lighten up, man. You are not at a socio-political seminar and I am not presenting my doctoral dissertation. And in any case, what is wrong with giving a movie analogy as long as the content referred to is relevant?
Actually I understand why you are refusing to not read the posts I linked to. Once you read them, you have no foot to stand on. You want to take out your ire about the Sena on someone and through a distorted understanding of one post, you assumed I am Sena apologist and are taking jabs. Reading those posts will show you the truth, and as a great Schopenhauer once famously wrote in his correspondence with Aristotle, you can't handle the truth.
As for your remaining anon, I understand and I give you a far greater latitude than Dhananjay. If my thought process was as warped as yours, and my approach to debate was as dishonest and under-handed as yours, even I would feel ashamed to put my name after it.
Heh. Trademark Sabnis. Couldn't help that repartee could you ? Don't worry I won't reply to it. You've been drubbed by better people on other blogs. Like illogical truism here. Not surprisingly you didn't come back to reply. That too, after you accused others in that same forum in those same comments of "no response" and then you vanished yourself. So let me not walk that path.
Just because I questioned what you wrote, that meant I said "Hey Sabnis, you didn't write about Desai or Joshi. You must be a Sena supporter". Trademark Sabnis. It's all about binary choices.
Where was this ever about you being a Sena supporter ? Did I even mention or hint at it directly/indirectly anywhere in my comments ?
In case you've still not gotten it - let me put it out there in black and white - "Your write-up on the Sena was pathetic and naive". There you go. And no - don't even think about saying that I'm introducing red herrings. Try something else next time. Like being subjective, original and incizive (heh).
It's tragic that people out there actually take you seriously. But not even half as seriously you take yourself.
Now for God's sake, move on. Don't occupy someone else's blogspace when you don't give others the freedom on yours (Damn !! I did it, I followed the Sabnis style binary choice move!)
Hmmm...even more mud slinging. Good to see you have cloaked your tactical withdrawl in such belligerence. At least you learnt something here. To summarize several paragraphs of seemingly objective and reasoned polemic into one single line of malicious subjectivity. If only you were in possession of this skill before this whole drama started, several electrons would have been saved so much inconvenience.
As for as ill-tru is concerned, i replied to him on his own blog, and in detail. That he didn't let it get past moderation is very telling, and in fact very typical of him. Yes, it is painfully obvious who he is, and if you say he is better than you then duuuude, you have some catching up to do with the rest of the human race.
Enjoy your humble pie, and leave ill-tru a piece.
Sabnis - enjoy your deluded world. Only a mind as febrile as yours could conclude that I made a tactical withdrawal. And spare me that gross verbosity in those last 2 sentences of your first para.
Coming back...50 posts on the Sena. None with any real issue. Why ? Because these issues were out of context of the issue of the post, blah, blah. And you expect to be taken seriously ?
And you talk to me of "malicious subjectivity". Give me something - anything - that you've written on the Sena (I daresay anything ?)that I can, for once, not call trash. And then we'll talk subjectivity. Malicious or otherwise.
As for illogical truisms, isn't it oh-so-convenient to shift a debate to the commentor's blog when you've been badly drubbed? I couldn't care whether he moderated you out - (besides, it's your shady word against his). And I couldn't care who he is. All the pain in "painfully obvious" is yours.
Dude, at least I'm in the human race. You're in the one meant for rats.
LOL, Anon, you are no worse than ill-tru, because you are in fact ill-tru. An iqara subscriber in Bombay with 203.187.208.# as the IP address. An all too familiar IP address. I should have guessed it from the Krishna Desai reference, since only someone quite old would still have clear memories of that. Plus as you write more and more, your writing style becomes very transparent.
Man, you are pathetic. Now knowing who you are, it is useless to even talk with you. Get a life. And bait some more people.
I find it ironical that most comments I ever received turned out to be a Sabnis love fest.
Anyway, I have read Sabnis posts on sena and I do believe that he is not a supporter of Sena.
However while I was in Mumbai I had the uncomfortable feeling thatmany people (of middle class) in Mumbai were "against" outsiders, even if they did not support Shiv Sena (in fact they will be horrified by it)
However please excuse me if I am not amused by "It is ok to bash up migrants to save Marathi Manoos" .
As I said earlier we come from different worlds.
Indian constitution gives right to every Indian citizen to work in any part of India,If this is disagreeable,please get the constitution amended.
Regards
Sabnis - Lol, ROTFL and LMAO. You've just given further proof of your deluded mind.
Rest assured I'm not Ill-tru and please - don't show off with that IP address and all that ! Any 5 year old can crack that.
Here - I'll give you the real stuff - I'm male, 28, based out of Warden Road. I've done my schooling from Scottish, college from Ruia and currently work for a software company in SEEPZ.
What else ? I'm single, and a blogger since Nov-2004. I hate pretentious people who use arbit random logic to make obvious points. And hey - I'm also a Maharashtrian. Think of me as Janardhan Deshpande - the ghat version of John Doe. There - that's enuff ammo for you to come after me with more of your childish two-paise punches.
Now what ?? you want a phone number huh ? Oh don't worry, you'll know me when we meet.
Howlarious how you're grasping at straws now....I'll leave you to it. Bad move dude, you've exposed yourself badly.
See you again in the real world. Your memory - like your logic - could do with some sharpening.
DG - sorry. I will not occupy your space anymore. Sabnis doesn't deserve so much attention.
Ok, Last thing !
It doesnt matter what is one in real life.
Please discuss ideas not people.
This kind of amateur sleuthing is ridiculous to say the least.
Regards
PS. The only reason I am not blocking comments is that number of comments boosts my (low) self esteem
Actually Anon, your profile says you have been blogging since August 2004. And Warden Road isn't in Bandra West. :)
No casual bystander will have as much hatred for a person like you have shown. An anon genuinely dissatisfied with his post would have a calmer debate. In fact, look at DG, who has previously linked to Sabnis in a non-complimentary way. He isn't exactly Sabnis's pal or ideological buddy. But even he showed the common sense to react to the post in a sane manner. Obviously, you have some history with Gaurav, else you would not be so hateful.
Combining that with a Bombay IP address, that too Iqara, makes it pretty obvious who you are. Your plug for Illogical Truisms, which no one was impressed with and which flopped badly, further cements it. And this elaborate lie you have concocted to make it seem like you are someone else was too clever by half. There is a loophole in your story which makes it obvious you are lying. Please practise the art of concoction more. Your core competence is non-fiction writing after all.
Good you've decided to move along from here. You're engaged in duels elsewhere in the blogosphere. Devote more time to them.
DG, forgive me for irrelevance.
Apparently Gaurav thinks I am the Anonymous here.
For what it's worth, my Iqara subscription ran out six months ago. I got fed up of their service. Their broadband cable lies gathering rain and dust on my chhaja. I use a different provider now.
I am old, I will have to admit. That that makes me the anonymous who thought of Krishna Desai is a startling bit of detective work. But it's a good one nevertheless. After all, if anyone mentions Independence, all of 59 years ago, they must be old too. Nobody younger than 60 remembers Independence.
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